You know the final nail in the coffin...

Discussion in 'General' started by Biggs_Darklighter, Mar 27, 2018.

  1. Hu Chi

    Hu Chi Level 41

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    You're still a young'un. The older you get, the more you'll appreciate such things.
     
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  2. GiantPenguinCavalier

    GiantPenguinCavalier Level 46

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    did they play up rey's parentage in TFA? or did we as the audience see this character that had no parents and had a strong connection to the force and immediately start up the speculation train on who her parents could be, and those involved with TLJ responded in kind by playing into it a bit during development? seems to me TFA presented us with a girl who didnt know who her parents were, and we immediately began theorizing how it must be luke's daughter, or kenobi's daughter, or mace windu's grandaughter, or biggs's cousin twice removed, because goddammit, no character in star wars can simply just show up out of nowhere -- they have to be connected to someone important somehow in order to validate their existence. im still waiting for the comic that shows DJ being tutored by Hondo Onaka.

    I think Johnson's decision to subvert the expectation here (much to the agonizing chagrin to people who hated TLJ and every single thing about it) was a smart one. if they make rey luke's daughter then ok great -- thats what literally everyone was expecting, so thanks for i guess giving us exactly what we all wanted or expected to see (and those that hate TLJ would then claim that it was too predictable). would this make luke or rey better? would it make the story any better? i argue that it would be a wash at best -- this to me would come off as pandering to the audience, which i feel would not play so well (consider that criticisms of TFA were mainly about how it mimicked ANH too much; continuing down the path of predictability would be an incredibly risky thing to do to follow up). not to mention, you really want to throw "father who abandoned their daughter on a shitty world with no one to watch over her" onto the list of why luke 'sucked' in TLJ? everyone has been harping on the fact that luke was grossly mis-characterized in TLJ as someone who thinks they have it all figured out and is confident that the decisions they are making are the right ones only to be shown that they are not, while also being tempted by the dark side and momentarily giving into it before rejecting that path and letting that momentary weakness govern his decision-making from that point on. compare this to luke in the OT who thought they had it all figured out and were confident in the decisions that they were making were the right ones only to be shown that they were not, while also being tempted by the dark side and momentarily giving into it before rejecting that path and letting that momentary weakness govern his decision-making from that point on. making him a terrible dad wouldnt improve this image.

    if you want to claim that Johnson's decision on rey's parents was a cop-out, then fine. he did essentially take whatever abrams had sketched out, and said, "if you want to make rey's parents important, then YOU do it." I ultimately believe that kylo is telling the truth because i dont really see what he gains by lying, but johnson left it open for abrams to go this route if he chooses to in Ep9. but what i find most important in Johnson's decision on rey's parentage though is that let's be honest here, should rey's parents have any importance to this story at all? i argue no and so is he in TLJ by saying they are nobodies. and to go one step further, if he made up two people to be rey's parents, the vitriol would be even worse -- everyone would say 'well who the fuck are those people, and why should i give a damn about them?' 'where did these rando's come from, and what's their backstory?' throwing more questions as an answer to a question can sometimes give an audience more to look forward to, and other times muck everything up to where audiences lose motivation to keep up. if you want an example of both extremes of this, go watch the TV show Lost, which just happened to be produced by Abrams. perhaps johnson saw where this was going having remembered Lost, decided, 'fuck all that, lets focus on what should be important to the story.'

    speaking of backstory, i've seen this complaint alot about snoke. and i chuckle when i read it because they gave him the exact same arc as palpatine had in the OT, just on a bit of a fasttrack. ESB is released, and we suddenly see that vader has a boss that he has to answer to -- a master that literally came out of nowhere, with no backstory as to how he came to be emperor of the galaxy, or why he's in charge and not vader or the senate or all the imperial moffs, etc. instead, it's 'here's this palpatine guy, oh and he's in charge of the Empire. anyway back to the story'. we still get none of these answers in ROTJ -- instead palpatine is killed by his apprentice (sound familiar?), and that's that. the only two differences between this and snoke in TLJ is that this all happens to snoke at a faster pace (and really, the whole introduction of snoke took place in TFA, so his arc wasnt so much compressed as it was just shifted to one movie earlier in the current trilogy compared to palpatine's arc in the OT), and kylo ultimately isnt redeemed by his decision to kill snoke -- it was a reach for power through and through (and his reasoning behind his power-grab mirrors anakins fall from the jedi over to the dark side), while vader's decision was to driven from his desire to save his son from destruction and ultimately bring peace to the galaxy like he wanted all along hailing back to his clone war days. people are forgetting (somehow, shockingly) that the whole story of the clone wars remained completely untold in the OT, save for that kenobi and vader fought alongside and that it ended with the rise of the Empire. we got palpatine's backstory along with how the clone wars went down almost 20 years after the fact, so let's exercise some patience here on snoke. if they still havent given us anything sometime in the next 20 years, then fire away about how useless he was. even then, he was ultimately used to solidify kylo's embrace of the dark side, much like palpatine was used to redeem vader, so he still served a function in the movie.

    i won't disagree on hux in terms of how he was used as a punching bag for comic relief, but i view him more as an amalgamation of all the generals/lieutenants/moffs/captains that vader choked out and/or killed in the OT. theyre background characters so they shouldnt be seeing much in the way of character development. to me, i never got the sense that finn forgot about rey -- after all, he was constantly worried about the beacon he was wearing on his wrist, and it was a driver for most, if not all, of his decisions. i think the big detraction on finn wasn't so much his development, but rather the subplot he was given (namely, the ill-conceived canto bight trip), and rose's infatuation-quickly-turned profession of love for him. those two things reflected poorly on finn, and made him look bad development-wise as a result. i dont see the hate surrounding poe either -- he was a hotshot pilot in TFA who was always in favor of going on the offensive and doing anything but being patient -- i saw no change in TLJ, and i dont see that as a bad thing. this time though, things go very wrong, and i think he learns from this whole ordeal and exercises more caution going forward. im surprised you didnt bring up phasma in this, as i saw her as a big disappointment in TLJ -- especially when i watched the deleted/alternate scene of her fight with finn. i thought that gave us way more of what phasma was about that anything we'd seen up to this point. i dont think she's dead, but if she comes back in ep9 they better have a damn good reason for bringing her back.

    if you want no political/social agendas in your movies, well, im sorry to break it to you but it can be found in any movie, including the OT (example: ANH can be used an example for equal rights for everyone when the bartender at the cantina refused to let r2 and c3po in). no doubt that TLJ was more heavy-handed about it, as the canto bight subplot seemed to forced, even if you strip it of any agendas attached to it. i just think it's important to know that no movie is immune to this, intentional or not.

    anyway, 4 more days until freedom!
     
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  3. zaymac

    zaymac Level 43

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    I think the true test on whether Disney SW wants to double down on the political agendas is what we see in SOLO: (I know we told you to let the past die, but we really want you to see this story about the past) A Star Wars Story.

    If Lando is Bisexual, Qira' is actually the one who makes the Kessel run, and Han is basically turned into a whipping boy, things will get ugly. I'm actually rooting for all these things to happen actually, because some men just want to watch the world burn.

    But honestly, even if they removed all of the political idealogy from TLJ, it still would've been a bad film.

    The more you analyze it, the worse it gets. Nearly every main plot point set up in TFA is completely disregarded in TLJ. But, I digress.
     
  4. Bull Pence

    Bull Pence Level 37

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    Nice post @GiantPenguinCavalier i particularly enjoy the snoke/palp comparison. I’ve been saying that for months. Their story arcs are nearly identical.

    Rey’s parents are not a big deal in tfa. As you said, we the fans made a huge deal out of it. Ultimately tlj tells us Rey’s parents don’t matter. I dunno why so many fans are hung up on this. We don’t care who’s luke parents are from a new hope.

    The biggest complaint I heard from fans after tfa was that it followed anh too closely. TLJ doesn’t follow empire and people complain about that. You can’t please everyone.

    The Finn/rose story arc is a total waste of time and adds nothing to the movie.

    I love how passionate Star Wars fans are. It’s a good thing that we have an internet to separate us or it would come to blows. Lol. I understand why some people hated it and I respect the opinions of those that do. I do hope that those of you who hated tlj can respect the opinions of those who enjoyed it. One opinion is not superior to the other, regardless of how dumb we may think the other may be. Lol.

    As far as politics go, nothing is immune from it. Anh may be the most political film ever made. Jedi represent the Jewish community who suffer at the hands of the Nazi’s/stormtroopers. But movies, tv, music, news, sports etc; all of them push political beliefs on each of us everyday. It’s everywhere, especially if we look for it. Disney may push it harder as time goes forward but that has yet to be seen. There is little doubt that they are a highly liberal company so if you’re a conservative, you’re likely to be offended by whatever they put out.

    I’m a Star Wars nerd and I will continue to watch everything that comes out. Even a so called bad Star Wars movie beats most everything else that hits the theaters these days.

    As we draw closer the end of SWFC and this forum, I would like to wish good luck to everyone in their future endeavors. It’s been a pleasure. MTFBWY
     
  5. skywlkr76

    skywlkr76 Level 41

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    I see you've been reading the new Han Solo novel Last Shot too.

    There have been several people (and I would be one of them) that have complained about how the new trilogy ruined their idea of Luke. Ben falls to the dark side, so Luke runs away to some remote planet to die. No one, however, says anything at all about Han. The new book really sets this up, the whole, I don't know how to be a dad, so I'm just going to jet off around the galaxy with my old drinking buddy and get him out of a jam that's probably my fault anyway.

    The more I read about Han after the events of ROTJ, the more I understand why Kylo wanted to kill him....

    I'm not saying he should have done it....

    But I understand.

    This is my biggest problem with TLJ, it just doesn't seem to flow (for lack of a better term) with TFA.

    I both agree and disagree with this. I agree that we the fans made too much of a big deal about who her parents are/were. But Rey keeps making a point about how she has to get back home to Jakku because she's waiting for her parents to come back. She brings it up once with Finn after they first escape, and again to Han after they land on Takodana. It's not until she talks to Maz that she finally admits to herself that they aren't coming back.

    As far as Luke's parents go, if you remember, Luke point blank asks Obi Wan how his father dies (letting the audience know that he's "dead") and Obi Wan tells him about Vader hunting down the Jedi. He never comes out and says that Darth Vader killed Anakin Skywalker, we're just led down a path to draw that conclusion for ourselves. And while Padme is never mentioned in ANH, it’s not had to figure out something happened to her, since Luke has been left in the care of his aunt and uncle.
     
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  6. Bull Pence

    Bull Pence Level 37

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    I guess my point to that was only to point out that Luke’s parents weren’t a big deal in anh, like Rey’s are not in tfa. She never mentions “Mom or Dad”. She does say to bb8 that she’s “waiting on her family”. But your point is taken and I’ll concede to that. The irony to me about the argument with Rey’s parents being a big deal or not is that Maz tells Rey in tfa “dear child, I can see in your eyes that you already know the truth. Whomever you are waiting for on Jakku, they're never coming back ... The belonging you seek is not behind you,it is ahead”. That sets up tlj perfectly with reys parents not really being of any consequence.

    Edit for spelling
     
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  7. Bull Pence

    Bull Pence Level 37

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    My biggest complaint with the new trilogy is how insignificant Luke has become. At the end of Jedi, I would assume that Luke has become a powerful Jedi, brought balance to the force, and restarted the Jedi order. It’s a huge let down for myself and many others to see him basically turn into Yoda on Degobah as a hermit hiding from the evil in the galaxy when he’s needed most. It’s as if the last 30 years of Luke’s life are a total waste.
     
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  8. skywlkr76

    skywlkr76 Level 41

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    I agree with the part about Luke, but I'm going to disagree with the part about Yoda. Yoda had a purpose in going into exile. From everything I've seen and read in the past, the original plan was that Obi Wan was to watch over Luke until he was ready and then he was going to take Luke to Degobah and train him with Yoda.
     
  9. Bull Pence

    Bull Pence Level 37

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    The point there is that Yoda ran away and hid. Whether he was waiting on Luke or not is mute point. There are many Force users, yoda couldn’t have found some of them to help the cause? I will give you that yoda is ancient at this time and perhaps he’s somewhat retired but still. He didn’t even want to train Luke. Obi and Luke push him into doing it.
     
  10. skywlkr76

    skywlkr76 Level 41

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    Ok, I’ll give you that one.
     
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  11. zaymac

    zaymac Level 43

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    I mean, honestly they walked back every character arc of all the old trilogy.

    Han realized he cares about more than money at the end of ANH. But in the beginning of TFA he's back to being a smuggler and a bad father.

    Luke overcomes the dark side and finds enough good in his father at the end of ROTJ. But is so scared of what Kylo "might" become, he almost kills him. And why did he leave a map in TFA, it was clearly evident he didn't want to be found in TLJ.

    Leia didn't do enough in the new films to judge her.

    Why is Chewie still around? *cough... Merchandise* His life debt is over.

    Admiral Ackbar. An afterthought. Why wasn't he the one to ram the ship at hyperspace? And why haven't they done this all along?

    Yoda coming back for episode 9... Really getting desperate to keep the old fans now aren't we.

    I mean, you could've made the transition to the new characters. They all seem like able enough (except Rose and Holdo. F them) But they are so poorly written people just don't want to watch them over the older characters.

    It flabbergasts me still, that the guy that directed some of my favorite episodes of Breaking Bad gave us The Last Jedi.

    But, I've already uninstalled SWFC, and I may go see SOLO if it indeed turns out to be a dumpster fire.
     
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  12. GiantPenguinCavalier

    GiantPenguinCavalier Level 46

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    finally a complaint about Luke's portrayal that i can at least accept, even if i still disagree with it. he did restart the jedi order, it just went very poorly (even in the legends canon, things get pretty rocky). this shouldnt be a total surprise though, since he's doing this alone. sure, he has ghost yoda, ghost ben, all the jedi holocrons and books and such that he's hunted down since ROTJ. but he's still ultimately doing this by himself, just sort of hoping that he's doing it correctly. but no, the NT (new trilogy) is not about that, or at least isnt set during that time. we get to see only a little of it through flashbacks.

    one thing i will point out is that while Luke is in his mid-50's (at most) by this point in the story, Mark hamill is 66 in real life. so from a logistical standpoint, setting TFA any earlier in time would mean having to use a fuck ton of makeup on mark hamill and hope that we can believe 60+ year old mark is only in his 40s, use CGI (given how well that went with tarkin in Rogue One, no fucking way), or cast someone else to play a Luke in his 30's (a bigger no fucking way -- at least for now). given his age, carrie fisher's age, and harrison ford's age, they were sort of backed into a corner from the start in terms of starting the NT decades after the OT. yes, he was a badass jedi master quite some years into old age in the legends canon, but it's alot easier to write about it than to show it on camera without at least having to use stunts. could they still have elected to start it off with luke at his academy trying to not let his students go DS? sure. they decided not to though, and so for those who were looking forward to that sort of thing (since we got a heavy dose of it from the old legends canon), i can see why they were disappointed in luke's story arc through the first two movies of the NT. however, disney going back and showing his jedi academy days or his jedi lore treasure hunts is completely within the realm of possibilities. theyve already shown snapshots of it through the comics and even a bit in battlefront II. dont be surprised if they someday come out with a movie about in-his-prime Luke with someone new portraying him.
     
  13. GiantPenguinCavalier

    GiantPenguinCavalier Level 46

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    why do people care so much about ackbar? he was background character in ROTJ with like 10 lines and rose to popularity because of two of them thanks to puns and internet memes. and because of this he deserves a sendoff like doing the hyperspace ram? it's not that i hate ackbar, i just think it's a bit silly to demand a 'proper heroic' sendoff for every character. if thats the case, where are the demands for wedge's last stand?
     
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  14. Brush your teeth

    Brush your teeth Level 22

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    I can pretty much narrow down my hating of TLJ to 2 reasons: Poor Escapism & Poor Storytelling. I’m going to attempt to explain this without getting into every single detail as I've already exhausted myself in hours and hours of discussions with family and friends.

    At its core, Star Wars was the finest example of escapism for me. Whenever I wanted to escape this world that we live, I could watch a Star Wars film (that I’ve already seen a hundred times for that matter) and be transported off this planet for a few hours. Any issue/s I was dealing with at that time would slowly drift away as I was swept up by Star Wars characters and storylines. While there is arguably some social commentary hidden within the original storyline, it wasn’t blatantly blasted in your face every couple of minutes. The last thing I need or want in a Star Wars film is to be reminded of the divisive times and socially inept, awkward atmosphere that we’re all currently living in; The Last Jedi accomplishes that on many levels. In the end, I watch Star Wars movies to escape the troubles of this world; I don’t need to be reminded of them.

    The poor escapism was mainly due to poor storytelling…which in turn lead into many other issues for me (which I am not going to mention in detail). While Abrams set down a new path for Star Wars, and introduced an arguably “interesting” cast of new characters, he mainly did this within the norms of Star Wars culture. TLJ nearly tosses all “rules”, culture, and Star Wars norms aside, while spitting in the face of anything and everything that’s come before it. While I can accept change, I cannot accept stupidity; TLJ is full of complete stupidity. The moment Poe flew up on Hux and began to spew “your mom” jokes…I began sinking lower and lower in my seat…then Luke shows up and we get to see him fish and milk a space cow…..then Holdo's “let's use lightspeed as weapon” occurred and I nearly stood up and yelled at the screen. As the movie went on, I wasn’t really mad anymore, I was almost embarrassed at what I was watching. For the first time in my life, I was embarrassed to be a Star Wars fan, and I began to question why in the hell I care so much.

    I saw TFA and TLJ in the theater with my oldest daughter, and it should be noted that she told me she liked both movies as we were walking out of the theater. I had already seen TFA when I took her, but I remember thinking that she’s going to love it. Rey was a strong female character, and my daughter deserves to see strong females in film. Rey definitely delivers in that aspect. However, as I walked out of the theater after seeing TLJ, I realized that I no longer cared about Rey. I actually cared a little more about Kylo and the First Order than I did for Rey and the Resistance now. I mean, hell, why should I cheer for Rey? Should I cheer for her because she’s female? Should I cheer for her because she’s an orphan? Should I cheer for her just because she’s “good?” Why in the hell should I cheer for her or care about her?! The purpose of a story and characters is to introduce them to you, introduce their struggles to you, and build upon their character development to reveal how they overcome, persevere, and/or fail. TLJ does none of that with Rey. I’m just supposed to like her because she’s Rey.

    At the end of all this, I’ve come to the realization that this is not the Star Wars that I grew up with, and I think that’s what ultimately hurts a lot of us longtime fans the most. The entire universe and its culture and norms that were established in numerous films, books, and comics were just tossed aside and shit on by TLJ. I previously mentioned that my daughter told me she liked both movies. Guess how many times she’s asked me to rewatch TFA or TLJ? None. Guess how many times she’s asked me to rewatch episodes 4-6? At least a dozen. Fuck you Disney, your shit is weak.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2018
  15. binary flotsam

    binary flotsam Level 36

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    You got it backwards, ya filthy commie. It's not the send off, it's the complete lack of one. They chose a new character to have some super telenova tearjerker and put him in a throwaway line. It's an overarching theme. Wedge wasn't even in this film dingus, he only got popular due to EU. Again, something they completely threw out.
    If you're cool with that, good on you, but it's proving dumb critically and financially. At the very least, I can't see any real argument against it being tone-deaf and callous to customers.
     
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  16. zaymac

    zaymac Level 43

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    Yep. I had issues with TFA, but you at least got the sense JJ Abrams had some respect for the source material. To a point in which he played it too safe at times. But I gave it a pass even though I had reservations, but I wanted to see where it went.

    And as soon as Luke tossed away the lightsaber, I knew. Rian Johnson doesn't respect the source material. He haaaaatttttess it. I actually just had a scary thought of Rian Johnson making the LOTR trilogy. *Shudder*

    But this was spiteful filmmaking. The irony of Kathleen Kennedy firing Lord and Miller from SOLO because it didn't "feel" like a Star Wars movie, yet they let this guy put this bastardized version of Star Wars on screen is not lost on me.

    Star Wars is open to all sorts of interpretation and representation of different stories. But I feel those would work best in standalone movies with lesser known parts of the SW Universe.

    You can't do that with established characters that people have come to love over decades and not expect some backlash. But, that is what Disney is allowing to happen with Star Wars, just like they've let happen with their Marvel comics wing.
     
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  17. Archus Monk

    Archus Monk Level 35

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    I don't want to derail this entertaining back and forth, but your last comment made me curious since I don't really follow any Marvel fan sites. Is there some backlash for some of the movies? My impresssion is that they've almost all been critical and box office successes.

    Also I would be surprised if there was equal backlash with comic fans because as a former avid comic book reader myself, I understand that almost every hero goes through periodic reboots and updates when sales slow or a new creative team comes aboard. I remember that as being par for the course of most titles I read. Therefore, I'm not sure why comic fans would complain about yet another different take on their favorite character on screen. Star Wars has always tried to present a single vision of its characters so I can at least understand long time fan anger here even if I don't agree with every point.
     
  18. Ben

    Ben Level 13

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    Anyone seen this before? Dead tie for 1st. I'm Actor Phantom. Fitting for the last ever PG...
     

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  19. zaymac

    zaymac Level 43

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    No. Not the movies, but the comics division itself is experiencing quite a backlash.

    They replaced all of the old established characters with updated versions that cover a broader spectrum of representation along with heavy handed politics.
     
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  20. hammy~the~hamsta

    hammy~the~hamsta Level 59

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