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Want reasonable (non partisan) discussion on politics

Discussion in 'The Lounge' started by Space, Feb 22, 2016.

  1. SumiXam

    SumiXam Level 51

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    I'm not going to do your 5 seconds of research for you. Both candidates are horrible. I didn't say anything partisan and you're the one who is twisting what I said into something it wasn't. Par for course on this topic though, which is why I was hesitant in responding.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2016
  2. fredthebadger

    fredthebadger Level 44

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    This thread is supposed to be reasonable and non-partisan. If you are going to make any claim like you did in the post I quoted, you need to give some form of evidence.

    I literally quoted two posts and asked you to give a citation. How on earth do you see that as 'twisting what you said'?
     
  3. Space

    Space Level 35

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    General Petraeus, using only Wikipedia to refresh my memory, was one step away from committing treason. He gave secure information knowingly to some without security clearance. He was the director of the CIA....... In the cold war she could have been a Russian operative....

    Clinton on the other hand used a less secure server for emails then was the norm
    " a practice that was discouraged but not forbidden."

    This puts it in a Gray zone. Where in general not technically against any law but the details may be. It comes down to individual emails and how they were treated.

    "Hundreds of such emails were sent to Clinton. Looking back long afterwards, although they were not marked classified, and were not put in State’s system for classified information, these have been deemed, retroactively, to have classified information. And that is much of the case against her."

    So this means the email setup retroactively broke the law.... See gray.... Not exactly clear.

    Furthermore the government knew about what was occurring
    "Her usage was widely known to the over 100 State Department and U.S. government colleagues she emailed, consistent with the practice of prior Secretaries of State and permitted at the time."

    In my opinion it shows she is lacking of judgement or understanding of technology but in no way does it seem criminal.

    All info taken from Washington post and
    https://www.hillaryclinton.com/briefing/factsheets/2015/07/13/email-facts/.

    The donor stuff I have only heard on right wing media. It is also not part of the current FBI investigation into the emails....
     
  4. SumiXam

    SumiXam Level 51

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    No, you alluded to me and didn't say anything until I responded directly to you. At least tag me or quote me if you're going to call me out instead of playing the passive aggressive white knight.

    I stand by my statement that the American population should be ashamed at the inability of the political process to produce a viable candidate for either party. I'm sorry that we've stooped to justifying the behavior of career liars and those who prefer to dance in the gray area to maintain "plausible disability".
     
  5. fredthebadger

    fredthebadger Level 44

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    ?

    My post asking for citations was a response to the general discussion as a whole. You asked what kind of posts would need a cite, so I went and found one you made that needed a cite.
     
  6. SumiXam

    SumiXam Level 51

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    I asked because you clearly alluded to me without referencing me.

    I highly recommend that you lookup and read the following and form your own opinion based on statute. I'll post links tomorrow when I'm on a computer.
    • The Federal Records Act
    • Freedom of Information Act
    • NARA regulations
    • Section 1924 of Title 18 -- the most squishy since many of Clinton's emails with sensitive information were designated classified after the fact.
    All of those should be official enough sources. Like I said, I'll try and post links tomorrow.

    General Petraeus was hit with a misdemeanor and a fine. I think that's a fair bit away from one step away from treason. That's beside the point though. I was only illustrating how Clinton has subverted the law where someone else was hung out to dry for much less than what is being swept under the rug in her circumstance.
     
  7. Space

    Space Level 35

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    I thought he pled guilty in essentially a plea deal but yes there was no enemy so i guess treason is far fetched. He was however compromised which is a big deal given the circumstances and his position. Forced retirement and a misdemeanor is fitting punishment.

    Clinton unfortunately doesn't belong to an organization where stupidity forces retirement. I don't see them as equal but the overall result of retirement should have been the same. The problem is: now what? Does the FBI have the political will to prosecute a presidential candidate over something that would likely not stick due to the amount of grey?
    Probably not.

    Look at what happened here in Canada with Mike Duffy .... There was someone who deserved to have a criminal record for breach of trust but off the hook due to too much grey.

    Better off just tuning out until the debate. That should be at least entertaining
     
  8. Dannik Jerikko

    Dannik Jerikko Moderator

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    NECROOOOOOOLOLOLOLOLO
     
  9. Space

    Space Level 35

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    But why?

    We could fill boards with every ill timed tweet or "alternative" fact thrown out there.

    You'd figure they'd ignore their press (or at least manage it differently) and just do their job. They are no longer campaigning.

    The vast majority of .... Not sure the right word so let's go with intellectual conservatives are like well we don't have Hillary! But now what? How do I protect my country without looking like I am fighting my own party.... Will I need to? It's a mix of hope and dread lol.

    Gonna be a weird 4 years. But if NAFTA goes down .... Say hello to rapid inflation and job losses. Robots do manufacturing jobs more than they have moved overseas...

    Also capitalism, the underpinning of the Western economy is about trade so he could infact put in more daming regulation then remove.

    Meanwhile my government is trying to get Infront of all this so this NAFTA stuff doesn't hurt us that badly whether it's brown nosing with the trump adminstration or strengthening trade ties with other countries.

    Now back to my pixel droids
     
  10. binary flotsam

    binary flotsam Level 35

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    Social media is an absolute fucking train wreck. 4 & 8 years ago it was filled with conservative's claims of impending socialism and FEMA camps for dissidents. Now, I'm honestly convinced there are certain progressives who won't be satisfied until gays are shot in the streets with Tesla guns, and women are freely drug by the pussy into rape clinics. Can't figure out if people are just really feeling that disenfranchised, or if we're that desperately addicted to the idea of victimhood. Maybe it's both.

    We've been getting a large dose of status quo after big promises of change for a long, long time. We've actually got change now. It's a largely unknown factor in both his ability to keep promises and the long term effect of any kept promises in the current world stage. One thing for sure is that Trump has been slinging ink the last couple days. I'm honestly happy I get to be pissed at something different, but it'd be crazy to break out the chicken little crystal ball as to things that haven't happened yet. Regardless, the stated direction desired is clearly where half (sake of argument, it's close enough) the nation doesn't want to go. That's the real issue, and we can't keep shouting over our neighbors as to why MY opinion or morality is best for YOU and why YOU'RE A BIGOT/IDIOT/BLEEDING HEART for wanting something different for you and yours. The nation is too fucking big and diverse, and we've come up on the "legislate complicated issues" portion of the program. Legislating on a national scale will never, never work in a way that doesn't leave half of us pissed off. Accepting both that, and that my classless, judgemental neighbors have every reason to want differently from me has done wonders for my sanity.
     
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  11. Betta Gutta

    Betta Gutta Level 46

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    This is an interesting read.

    "In 7 essays, scholars propose that the real problem is size and scale, suggesting that the country is simply too big for one central government. This thought-provoking book begins a debate on how to divide it on a more human scale."

    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1589809572/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
     
  12. Dannik Jerikko

    Dannik Jerikko Moderator

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    What impresses me most, however, is the seeming inability to understand that rioting in the streets and arbitrarily destroying private or public property is not an appropriate reaction to being disillusioned with the current state of our nation. You have people stepping in front of traffic in order to promote change? Then these folks are upset or surprised that they get struck by vehicles? They played the stupid game, they won the stupid prize. People throwing shit at police officers, surprised they get sprayed with OC? Stupid games beget stupid prizes.

    I used to work in a juvenile rehabilitation facility for sex offenders. I made it a point to educate these young shitstains on the papyrus of the Book of Life that there existed a concept called "Natural Consequences." Every action has them. They can be good, bad, or indifferent... but they exist. If I punch someone in the face, my natural consequence might be that I get punched back, charged criminally, or both. There's no limit to these consequences. I go into that situation knowing the potential for consequences. If I don't foresee a consequence, that's on me, the actor, not the game of life. Now you see on social media people whining because they are now facing jail time for participating in a riot, and you wonder what the fuck they thought their consequences would be. Social media, fake news, the false sense of entitlement that is generated by the concept of "freedom" - all of this is ruining our country. People are so fucking stupid. "It's a free country." No. It's a country that promotes free speech, free thinking, and free acting, but it doesn't give you freedom from CONSEQUENCES. Sick of the whining done by people who feel entitled to avoid consequences.

    What the worst thing that I've seen during this election process is though, is that some people who have been promoting tolerance have been utterly intolerant (and intolerable). "If you voted for Trump, unfriend me." ... ... ... how about we have an intelligent and informed political discussion and agree to respect that each of us has a different viewpoint, and that neither of us might be right or wrong. We as people are entitled to our opinions. Respect that just because someone doesn't necessarily share the same opinion as you, it doesn't mean they are cloven hoofed daemons who are wearing people suits in an effort to disguise their true mission (harvesting souls for the demon president Agares). People have been fighting with people they've been friends with for lifetimes over a difference in opinion over this election. This country is ripe for a civil war, and it's going to be absolutely bloody when it happens.
     
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  13. binary flotsam

    binary flotsam Level 35

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    More civil unrest is very much coming. Spurned on by the same media that's absolutely full of shit if they lean a different team, gospel otherwise. "Antifa" and co. is surprised about the results of picking fights with cops trained for discretionary use of force. They're going to need new sold ripped jeans when they fuck with Bubba on the day he's out of dip. Bubba who by the way, is in the same damn boat as them.

    Never really given a shit how people vote, but the lack of tolerance from those whose platform is built on the notion is really aggravating me lately as well. The same people who want to foster diversity completely shut family out of their life if they watch Fox News. What kind of cerebral kettle bells do you have to do to get to that? We're entranced with this idea of the stranger and the other, and have such little connection to our actual communities. It's weird.

    Most conversation about it is either fascinating or depressing, haven't decided. I've been attempting to talk to people just to calm their tits and hopefully learn why it's inflamed. Trouble is, most of Hillary and Bernie supporters give me immediate, immense, and smug condescension if I don't make a hyperbolic statement about Russian hookers and tiny hand jokes.** If you say outrageous shit like "Trump is going to actually bring us back to Nazi germany and throw Muslims in camps" you get a nice "Go Queen!, don't hold back! You tell em!" Weeping plastic Jesus, where's the middle ground? Rabid fanaticism. The country has switched coaches for.. oh I don't know... ever. But, this time it will really be the one. Promise. And if you disagree, I'll light your hair on fire, call you a coon, and laugh as you receive violence. I hope things will calm down, I really do. Not holding my breath.

    ** - Hilarious if you believe the back story on it. Some Twitter troll got pissed at a news guy (forgot the name) because he was getting him banned so fast every time he sent newsman goatse. So the troll catfished him as conservative in the know, merged 3 old internet stories, added piss to them and fed it to him. Up the line it went allegedly.
     
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  14. Betta Gutta

    Betta Gutta Level 46

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    Social media is a major part of the problem contributing to division. It provides a platform for those on the far left and far right to vomit their thoughts without immediate consequences (i.e. a right hook to the jaw). All that social media ranting accomplishes is a digital pat on the back from those who already agree with the poster. There is zero constructive dialogue.

    I've had better conversations with people in person. I think we can still have good dialogue, and that it's more important than ever. I enjoy having intelligent conversation with people possessing other world views (most world views... no one like the far left or far right lunatics). I can believe I'm right about an issue but still respect the other person. However it does seem this is becoming more difficult for people.

    These celebrities don't help either...
     
  15. Space

    Space Level 35

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    I'll try to get back to this tomorrow. (FYI Canadian here)

    I am not even sure the current unrest is even stricktly divided along right vs left. Trump has proposed things (some of the trade rhetoric) which is very leftish but termed in something that is ... I don't even know.

    My biggest issue with Trump is his complete lack of conventional logic... I know to some that makes him appealing but ... The dam tweets and the whole immigration rhetoric/ Mexico / Israel/Taiwan/ Russia/crowd size/ whatever.

    Well can't say he doesn't represent change but what change? The jury is still out... But prognosis isn't good given "alternative facts". I most certainly lean left but will change my opinion based on data. Trump seems (I have used "seem" on purpose, I don't know the man) to ignore facts and make up his own.

    Might as well ignore the Dems for the next 2 years. So now it really is about trumpt himself. As I have discussed to betta bedore. Paul Ryan (and Senate majority leader) may just be the most important man for the next 2 years to create a Republican agenda without ripping the country and economy apart.
     
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  16. binary flotsam

    binary flotsam Level 35

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    Massive hats off in this thread. All the comfort of an echo chamber! Now with "ability to disagree" feature!

    @Betta Gutta , you nailed it. What concerns me is that I'm starting to see a crossover from the online headline and sensationalist approach into meatspace. We're only likely to see an increase as technology's place in our lives increases, and the youth that was born into the thick of it comes of age. It's ties in to what Dannik was saying about consequences. Years back, there was a news report on a high school student's death. As they were interviewing his classmates, one was saying how he went to school knowing he was and expected him in the classroom. He continued, "It didn't really hit me until I didn't get a text back for a day". I'll never forget that. Let's hope more people get out and actively engage. Not just one day for one issue.

    @Space , I spent the majority of Obama's presidency working with a mostly right leaning man who was very into conspiracy theories. He was an amazing person, and so I started to research things he was saying. They didn't always pan out, but there was always another side. The old gem comes to mind "Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is enticing, what they conceal is vital." The problem with newly named alternative facts isn't the facts themselves. They've always been there. It's branding it as something new. THAT'S where the dystopia lies.

    Going to touch on policy for sec, but I swear it's on topic. Call me a fence sitter, but I've been researching both sides to come to a conclusion on some of them. Take the wall and the proposed 20% import tax. There's articles claiming "Mexico to pay for wall by making Americans pay taxes", and there's "California farming industry boon likely". Which is correct? Most individuals are very sure which it is, but at what cost? If someone were to give me an option to end an affliction world-wide, it would be Dunning-Kruger and it wouldn't be close. The media's job right now is to sell and stay profitable. The old guard is in dire trouble with independent reporting and social media.

    Far as ripping the country apart, the tensions would have been astronomically high regardless of who won. We are definitely starting to see parallels between past fallen empires, and we know that establishment folks haven't stemmed the tides. Whether the odd duck that Trump is will serve as catalyst or the savior is yet to be seen. The campaign is over, so this isn't a selling point mind you. It's just where we're at. We're definitely in for some growing pains. As dusty as my bug out bag is, the American people's resolve and ability to unify when they need to is not something I want to bet against. Let's hope there's still enough of us that are able to see humanity through the 3D glasses.
     
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  17. Space

    Space Level 35

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    I totally agree but somethings .... I am all for asking questions and pushing boundaries but the Birther movement (Championed by Trump) and climate change deniers (for every possible piece of data that suggests otherwise I have an answer or can find one quickly, I am not a climate scientist but it's within my wheel house) are two of the most glaring things (Note: arguing about outcomes and severity of climate change is different then denying that is occurring). A close third is claims of 3-5 million illegal votes...
    Regardless these things need to play themselves out. He won the election fair and square, he gets his chance.


    I more wanted to touch on something different or tangential but mentioned

    I like the term "Natural Consequences.". If a person goes a head with civil disobedience they should be aware of the possible consequences and be prepared to pay them. The civil rights movement is full of stories of police trying to maintain the status quo, often using physical force. A step towards equality was brought about on the streets with blood. I don't blame the police (perhaps blame the society at the time) it was a battle of the status quo versus an idea of equality.

    Civil disobedience has a long tradition in both Canada and the USA. Some of those figures that helped to lead these movements are some of the most revered. Civil rights movement, woman suffrage movement ect. or the iconic images of the from Vietnam protests in the 60's or the gay rights march in the late 80s have all had a real impact on the government and policy of the day. If Trump continues down the anti immigration road with mass deportations there will be a heavy backlash. Cities are set to disobey the feds .... this could put millions on the streets. this isn't driven by the media (although they may make it worse/better depending on point of view). Many already feel that the only way to limit the damage is to take to the streets and resist. Time will tell if history looks fondly on them or as shit disturbers. Its important to understand we have a long history of this. This isn't the first nor likely the last time this will occur.

    Sometimes the only way to change course and make a real difference is to take to the streets. Yes, when you have that many people together shit happens. Thus far in comparison to the number people protesting the negative/violent confrontations is fairly low.

    keep in mind my social media consumption is limited and not likely biased by my "media feed". I don't use facebook (although have an account i check every couple of months) so I would say the vast majority of my social media intake is this forum. My news is mostly CBC (Canadian Broadcasting Company) but sometimes CNN, BBC or even the news hour on PBS ("the corrupt biased media" I know). Web wise I like fivethirtyeight (one of the least partisan legit news web sites I have found) and occasionally read articles from the google news app which includes christen science monitor, fox new, etc. When in doubt I get on google scholar and do a literature search (if in a field I have a hope in hell of understanding the jargon) and i still know nothing. Obviously my grasp isn't 100% as I don't live the reality but if Trump doesn't start to pivot he may awaken a level of civil disobedience that has been seen in decades. In this instance I have a lot of sympathy for both the protesters and the police that are ment to keep the peace.
     
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  18. Dannik Jerikko

    Dannik Jerikko Moderator

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    My issue with this era of civil disobedience is it is feeling more like a temper tantrum from a toddler than a legitimate complaint. Obama has done some of the same exact things that Trump has said he would do, and there wasn't wild unrest when Obama said it. It feels more like a "sore loser" mentality (as much as I hate saying that, because I do see some of the complaints of the Democrat party as valid) or as a means of getting one's way when the parent says no.

    If people are going to protest, they need to be tactical about what they choose to protest. Protesting EVERYTHING ensures that no message is heard. They need to pick their battles so it doesn't appear like whining.
     
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  19. SumiXam

    SumiXam Level 51

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    Popped onto AI after a few months away to see what's up and saw an alert for this thread. Glad to see you guys revived it. I knew that the presidential election would leave me wondering where the US would be in four years regardless of which one of the clowns won. It is frustrating to see that people are unable to carry on a conversation with another person who has an opposing viewpoint without reverting to interwebz-style hyperbole and hysteria. If something happens that a group of people disagree with, they suddenly feel justified to fight, ruin personal property, and behave in ways that I can't even begin to understand. Disagreeing doesn't automatically make the opposing party a bigot, racist, communist, nazi, etc, etc. It is worrying that these are the default reactions opposing views instead of listening and having measured dialogue.

    I live in a state that has had a super majority of one political party for decades and I've seen firsthand the damage an unchecked majority can do. Everywhere I've lived, I have registered to vote as the party that is in the minority because I firmly believe that opposing views need to be listened to. Most people these days seem so hell bent on winning an argument that they don't even truly understand what they are arguing about.
     
  20. Betta Gutta

    Betta Gutta Level 46

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    The temper tantrums are astounding.

    As someone of Ashkenazi decent, I take offense to the left's constant tossing around of the term Fascist and Nazi regarding the GOP. Let's not resort to hyperbole, particularly when we are referring to a time which lead to the systematic destruction of millions of my people.

    Interestingly, the rioters like the ones at Berkley resemble the Nazis in the 30's, working to suppress the the rights to free speech and assembly while the Berkley police stand by and do nothing.

    Great evil can arise from any group on the spectrum, but I wish people would see where things go before losing their minds.
     

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