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Want reasonable (non partisan) discussion on politics

Discussion in 'The Lounge' started by Space, Feb 22, 2016.

  1. Space

    Space Level 35

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    Ok first I am Canadian so an outside to USA politics and have nearly zero stake in the USA election (one caveat to come)
    @Betta Gutta @Dannik Jerikko @GQ79 @AresWarBringer and anyone else with opinions/view points

    I am a political junky here at home but the politics to the south confound me and I am left scratching my head how it got to this point.

    From the out side
    Democrates
    1. Bernie Sanders will never get anything done which requires votes through congress (and quite possibly the senate). So essentially a lame duck president if elected.... (irrespective of how you feel about his policies)

    2. Clinton while moderate and close to the center of American Politics has a lot of baggage. Some of which has been blown out of proportion but never the less is there. Furthermore the dynasty thing kind of goes against the whole point of two terms and out doesn't it? (same argument against Jeb Bush but he's out anyway)

    The republicans
    Where to begin? The whole circus leaves me cringing and wondering about the country as a whole. Will not address the other fringe candidates.

    1. Donald trump may be fulfilling some desire/fantasy to have someone unconnected to the political elite class but there would be a price to pay. First already he is hurting diplomatic relations and he does not have any elected position yet! This is where my Canadian bias come in as I believe he also wants a wall between Canada and the USA..... bizarre at best. It almost seems Donald Trump represents a midlife crisis. I really don't see anything positive about his candidacy. I would like to here valid reasons backed up logic and or facts to the contrary.

    2. Ted Cruz. The tea party and how American politics has become so polarized.... not too sure what else to say other than he represents the far right of the republican party and therefore would not likely win a general election. I am not touching the policies for a reason just the logic of putting him forward as the republican Candidate.

    3. Marco Rubio - the only moderate left with a chance? Truthfully he may have a realistic shot of winning against Hilary as long as he doesn't stray too far right during the rest of the primaries.


    The X factor
    Bloomberg
    So if Trump and Sanders move forward as the nominees this guy will likely make a third party run.... If it works great (I think)! If not .... oh my ...


    I also have not addressed Big money (since when does a corporation have the same rights as a ordinary citizen?) or lobby groups Like the NRA etc ...

    How is it even possible to have intelligent conversations about politics in this environment of madness (again my perception)?

    So please explain it to this backwards Canadian!
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2016
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  2. GQ79

    GQ79 Level 52

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    Buddy, I appreciate your interest, and thinking I might be interested in the conversation, but I personally don't have any interest in discussing politics on the interwebs, particularly in my home, away from home, away from home, forums... though I may watch until my brain starts sizzling.
     
  3. Space

    Space Level 35

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    Fair enough, I totally understand.
     
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  4. AresWarBringer

    AresWarBringer Level 18

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    Space thank you for inviting me to this conversation. You are correct in ascertaining that I am opinionated and am not afraid to voice those opinions, however, fighting for my country has left me jaded about politics in general. Furthermore, there are two things you don't discuss with your friends if you want to continuing keeping them as friends, politics and religion ;).
     
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  5. Dannik Jerikko

    Dannik Jerikko Moderator

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    Frankly I hate our political climate at the moment. The American political system needs a humongous reform. I think each party has valid arguments, and I think it's totally asinine that there isn't more cooperation between both parties.
     
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  6. Space

    Space Level 35

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    I have actually done both many times and have never had an issue, although I do it carefully :). I personally like to be shown I am wrong with logic and facts. The best way to learn something. I statements and try to remove the partisan points and usually everything is just fine and if it goes south quickly I back off and change the subject to sports :p.
     
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  7. Betta Gutta

    Betta Gutta Level 44

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    I'm debating whether to comment in depth or how much to say :)
     
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  8. Space

    Space Level 35

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    Alternatively how should the system chnage? Is my synopsis at the top even remotely accurate?

    I guarantee you won't offend me but I understand in today's world letting our own political view points be heard can be a liability in cirtan situations.
     
  9. fredthebadger

    fredthebadger Level 44

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    For now, I'm supporting Clinton on the basis that the Imgur posts comparing the two that get posted by Sanders supporters make me think she'd be a better president.

    Aside from that, my voting preference would be Not Trump, followed by doing some research on the other options while leaning Democratic because they are closer to my views on social issues.

    The main issue with anyone trying to run as a third-party candidate is that the entire system is set up for two parties, and said parties have been established.
     
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  10. Betta Gutta

    Betta Gutta Level 44

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    This is a redacted form of my originally drafted post:

    I am appalled by the current political climate in our country. I firmly believe our current administration is impotent at best, continually demonstrating weak and naive policy in both the foreign and domestic realm.

    Our federal government is already much too large. A debt of $19 trillion is not payable.

    Bernie Sanders equates to massive expansion of the federal government, Clinton policies are mostly a continuation of the current failed administration, and Trump has no defined policies. Trump just says a whole lot of “I’ll do great things!”
     
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  11. fredthebadger

    fredthebadger Level 44

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    I may have a differing opinion on the other things you've talked about, but this statement is factually wrong.

    The first reason is that, working from 2015 numbers, the government expected to run a 620 billion deficit, and had to pay 229 billion interest as part of said deficit

    Tax breaks were estimated to cost the government 1,220 billion that year, and the sum total of discretionary spending was planned to be 1,110 billion.

    That math alone shows that the Debt is something that can be paid off.

    If you managed to cut Tax breaks, Military spending, Social security, and Medicare by 15% without damaging the economy or killing off congress, the total change would be roughly 623 billion. At which point, you have a 3 billion surplus, and can begin paying off the debt.
    Naturally, no politician who complains about the massive debt is willing to take the hit to X program that benefits them, which is reason #2 that instead the spending is perpetually increasing.
     
  12. Betta Gutta

    Betta Gutta Level 44

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    Well, you had to go and bring math into it :)

    I should have further qualified my statement. The debt is not payable because the American people will never sacrifice what is necessary to pay it off.

    Its not really the politicians who would have to take the hit. Those politicians willing to cut spending enough will never even be elected POTUS. Its the majority of American people who are unwilling to let go of services.
     
  13. Betta Gutta

    Betta Gutta Level 44

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    By the way, I'm fully committed to not argue on here :) I love the Ai community. Its pretty cool that Star Wars can bring such a diverse group together.

    (I'm not saying you @fredthebadger were trying to argue)
     
  14. fredthebadger

    fredthebadger Level 44

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    Lol, yeah. It's mathematically possible, and I wish it were politically possible.
     
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  15. Space

    Space Level 35

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    Awesome start! Exactly the type of discussion I was looking forward too
     
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  16. Betta Gutta

    Betta Gutta Level 44

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    The one certainty in politics at the moment:

    Whenever anyone in the SWFC universe does anything shady, just blame Obama.
     
  17. Space

    Space Level 35

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    Politics of the swfc universe?
     
  18. Space

    Space Level 35

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    Gonna post a long rant later but agian completely non partisan. Need time to fact check and put it together in a logical way.

    As betta said there is no want or need to argue. Look if I had to guess already two poeple who typically support the opposite party completely agree on the middle ground of the debt.

    I suspect that is the norm in America but the typical conversation thrown through the media makes it look much more polarized
     
  19. Space

    Space Level 35

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    Ok

    Elections in a democratic country are supposed to be sacred. To mess with them is to commit treason (in my opinion). In Canada our elections are run by a 3rd party attached to the government at arms reach. Ie the controlling political party should not have any influence on the creation or boundaries of electoral districts (called ridings in Canada). One can argue they they do have influence but it truly is small. That said one political party here in Canada was accused of robo calls directing people to the wrong voting place in Canada 5 years ago... I am still angry that we never got the whole story about that incident although one junior staffer got jail time.

    Ok back on topic. Example our most populous province Ontario and metropolitan area Toronto
    upload_2016-2-23_12-23-53.png

    [​IMG]

    Notice that the voting "districts" are fairly square. simple division based on topography and population. NOTHING ELSE

    Lets view part of the Texas State congressional map

    upload_2016-2-23_12-26-5.png

    districts 2,6,7,9,18,29,30,33 etc etc etc are messed up! Gerrymandering at its finest! (this does happen in many other states but perhaps not this bad) How is it that BOTH major parties get away with this? Why is this never tackled as a policy to set things right? I find it so strange when proportional representation is at the heart of our democracies and what gets way more air time is gun control. Why? ( In truth, I do understand the gist of why many do not want gun control but the conversion on the issue has turned to loonacy in recent years.) Red herring discussions aside this and big money is what I find so perplexing about the American system of politics. Something so core to having fair elections is absolutely trampled on and no one seems to care enough to make it a central issue. It is so fundamental I do not see this as a right or left issue; I don't see it anywhere on the political spectrum. Is it similar to George rr martin's game of thrones that the average person just wants to live their life and could care less what the politicos do until it directly impacts their day to day life? (Note I can make the same arguments in different ways for Canada).
     
  20. fredthebadger

    fredthebadger Level 44

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    Pretty much.
    As far as I know, only Hawaii and a few other states with few districts have mostly sane district lines. Every other state is full of stuff like that.

    Here's Hawaii's two districts:
    Pretty big pic
    [​IMG]


    Compared the the rampant bullshittery you can find by just looking at Los Angeles with an overlay of the congressional districts.

    There's multiple areas where a district goes along a road to capture a single line of houses.

    My grandmother used to be a member of the California Liberal Republicans, and when a redistricting hit while she was preparing to run for office they drew an extension down the street that contained her and the neighbors to one side, but not across the street or on the other side, to put her in a district where the incumbent was wildly popular.
     

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